(Sep 20, 2011, 5:12 pm)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]You show a good understanding that different countries have different traditions and rules based on their interaction with other countries. The far western countries France, Spain, Portugal, Britain ideologies are different from someone that is Greek, Serbia, Lietuva. France, Spain, Portugal, England basically colonized most of the world at point. Most of Africa, the Americas, India, parts of Asia, Australia. If its about genetics then a very large portion of USA citizens and Americans in general can play for for England, Spain, France. A good friend and colleague of mine is a professor. Her doctorate in Statistics and genetics. she does research in European studies and American studies. Some of the findings are very interesting.
My comment was off point but this subject lends to other and interesting discussions.
I agree , thing is greeks are very enthsiastic people with a strong national pride. I think they are not pissed off by naturalization in general but they are proud of their blood and tradition (in this case basketball culture). When you mentioned some of their player were raised and trained in US so their sucess belongs to US , they (actually fivepack) snapped.
In this case as a turk knows greeks quite well , I can say this much.
1- Yes , they could have trained these men or their replacments for their NT.
2- However NBA and NCAA is better platforms to train great players.
3- As far as I see USA doesn't care nationality about NBA , it seems like thy want NBA to be a world premier basketball organization. (which alredy is)
4- Greeks never forget they are greeks.
5- Although they are pain in the ass (I'm really friendly saying that) , they are quite reaonable pople in fact.
As a rsult I want to say; Greeks love theirselves and they love debating (I know fom my weeks long youtube debates with them) and finally they know how to play basketball, so it was inevitable for them to display an angry reaction what you say about their basketball.
This was off topic too but I wanted to share something about them and I can't help myself inciting them to a debate
Hey Lupin, obviously you failed miserably in your responses. Your obvious lack of intellect cannot comprehend rules and regulations. I gave my reasons, and facts can NOT be disputed. FIBA rules are quite specific with respect to naturalization, and countries musn't go around abusing them.
Our naturalization laws are simple. It won't matter if your born inside or outside Hellas, or if your 1st or 1000th generation, once your seed is connected to Hellas, you'll always have the opportunity to represent the Blue and Whites. And that legislation will always be affixed and 'ironclad.'
As for the USA, your naturalization laws whether to do with sport or not, are suspect, changeable and interchangeable to utlimately suit your own needs. Good luck with that..
(Sep 20, 2011, 4:43 pm)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]I 100% understand your point. 
The situation would be less controversial if every country had the exact same immigration laws. This is not the case and FIBA has the problem of regulating what can be a mess. Countries like USA,Canada, Australia have very lenient citizenship laws. Where as many other countries are stricter. I believe the eastern European countries are far stricter. The Holden situation kinda surprised me. FIBA has a mess on their hands. Allowing only one naturalized player is a decent compromise (IMHO) given all the different countries and views involved.
People suck, for the good of basketball things need to change everywhere....
Ultimately I wouldn't be surprised that the reason why FIBA allows one foreigner on a national team would be down to money
The expansion of more teams playing in Eurobasket (and I suspect the same thing has or will happen in other regional basketball championships globally) has been done for more loot to be made by FIBA and to attract more advertising too.
(Sep 20, 2011, 8:58 am)vakasimo2 Wrote: [ -> ]No matter where they were born , greeks feel they are greek can play for greece.
But ı strongly object on identifying all cases of naturalization as cheating. Countries and regions have their unique conditions. USA, Canada and Austrailia for example are colonial countries and their people have their roots from somewhere else, so their case is not naturalization . That can be valid for the examples below.
Germany-Austria-Poland
Baltic Countries
Core states of former USSR
Former Yugoslavian states
Turkey-former Ottoman Balkan states
Benelux countries
Commonwealth of GB
Etc.
McCaleb's case is a one I don't approve but I believe it will be influental on of their basketball community.
I wrote those before but I just wanted to express them again. Briefly your debate is a bit unnecessaryly rough, in my opinion.
You're so mixed up I'm impressed. Hellas is a country within it's own right!!! Over 4000 years old, and absolutely nothing to do with your country. The cradle of the west. Do NOT refer to Hellas as a 'Former Ottoman Balkan state.' Under occupation is more precise, and so was half of Europe, all the way to Hungary. Hellas is Hellas and the former unification of Hellenic states, a very very long time ago. End of story.
The NCAA is only a beginning, a basic platform for young players to learn their trade. It's not even better than or equal to Europa cup standards.
(Sep 22, 2011, 2:23 am)Fivepack Wrote: [ -> ]You're so mixed up I'm impressed. Hellas is a country within it's own right!!! Over 4000 years old, and absolutely nothing to do with your country. The cradle of the west. Do NOT refer to Hellas as a 'Former Ottoman Balkan state.' Under occupation is more precise, and so was half of Europe, all the way to Hungary. Hellas is Hellas and the former unification of Hellenic states, a very very long time ago. End of story.
The NCAA is only a beginning, a basic platform for young players to learn their trade. It's not even better than or equal to Europa cup standards.
"Do NOT refer to Hellas as a 'Former Ottoman Balkan state"
I never did and never would bro, I know that much. I meant Bosnia, FYROM, Albania, Kosovo even Bulgaria. These countries are not Turkish either but because of there were many turks living there for centuries, now there are a considerable amount of Turks and Muslims in these countries. they are either turkish or have turkish culture at the same time(it is a complex issue but but to say the least being a muslim in Blakans means to be a turk at the same time)
If you pay attention to the list there are similiar situations like Poland-Germany , are they same ? NO , but they have their people living in the other one's country in considerable numbers. Whatever , I got your point, hope you got mine too.
NCAA maybe a training ground but thinking of graeat players of NBA thoughout the history , I think they are better at training athletes than europeans.
(Sep 21, 2011, 12:38 pm)ZEUS Wrote: [ -> ]Ultimately I wouldn't be surprised that the reason why FIBA allows one foreigner on a national team would be down to money The expansion of more teams playing in Eurobasket (and I suspect the same thing has or will happen in other regional basketball championships globally) has been done for more loot to be made by FIBA and to attract more advertising too.
I'd like to know what happens behind closed doors in the FIBA HQ. Money plays a part in this some how.
I'm for anything that makes basketball grow in a
positive way. I like the euro expansion to 24(?). The groups ended up being not as skewed as most thought. Lietuva, Turkey, Serbia had bad Eurobaskets. I'd like to see more countries catch basketball fever. Even though the Bo BcCalebb thing was a bit shady albeit within the rule. I enjoyed FYROM fans being so happy! They were all over the forums on the the FIBA site. I watched a youtube video of thousands celebrating in Skopia(?) after they beat Lietuva. I seriously can't hate on that. Obviously I'm a USA guy BUT now when I look back at the Greeks celebrating after they beat us in '04 I can't help but smile a bit. Maybe this team will inspire some FYROM kids in the future.
I hope they don't expand the FIBA Americas or Asia. We don't have the needed depth of quality....yet
I think what needs to happen is that the Oly games need to be expanded from 12 to 16. I'd give Europe 5 automatic spots. Americas 3 Asia 2 Africa 2 Oceanic 2. I'd let the last 2 spots be qualifiers.
I like the idea of a 16 team tournament but if we give Oceania 2 spots then Australia and New Zealand qualify 100% of the time!
(Sep 20, 2011, 9:37 pm)vakasimo2 Wrote: [ -> ]It is very surprising.
You don't have it in Turkey? :p
(Sep 22, 2011, 7:20 pm)skangles Wrote: [ -> ]I like the idea of a 16 team tournament but if we give Oceania 2 spots then Australia and New Zealand qualify 100% of the time!
Yeah that's cheap. Maybe just leave them with 1 spot and bring the qualifying spots back to 3. New Zealand has some talented teams. I'd like to see the Tall Blacks in the Olympics.
Or they just need to merge with FIBA Asia to create a multi-regional conference similar to FIBA Americas. I brought this idea up in the FIBA Asia thread.
Basketball is not established enough to support more than 4 regions. Two regions already stink (Asia and Africa) and Oceania has 2 teams! Both the Aussies and Kiwis have solid teams and they could help increase the level of competition in Asia.
(Sep 22, 2011, 8:16 pm)ZEUS Wrote: [ -> ]You don't have it in Turkey? :p
If I understand right about what you said, no.
^ So if you're a real talent you'll get the push to become pro?
(Sep 23, 2011, 12:41 am)ZEUS Wrote: [ -> ]^ So if you're a real talent you'll get the push to become pro?
I'm not a professional basketball player I can't know. But I have a teammate became a pro ref and one teammate became a basketbll player, they had no contats they were talented athletes.
Player one's name is Emre I forgat his surname though (it was about 15 years ago) , he played for Olympiakos as far as I remember. Strange isn't it ?
He played for Olybiakos???????? The only Turks I remember playing in Greece were Kutluay for PAO first and later on PAOK, and Arslan for Panionios...
That's really good if that's how it is in Turkey. In Greece we have so much talent that gets wasted in all our sports... Oo
EDIT: Him?
http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cnt...mNotSure=1
(Sep 23, 2011, 2:11 am)ZEUS Wrote: [ -> ]He played for Olybiakos???????? The only Turks I remember playing in Greece were Kutluay for PAO first and later on PAOK, and Arslan for Panionios...
That's really good if that's how it is in Turkey. In Greece we have so much talent that gets wasted in all our sports... Oo
EDIT: Him?
http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cnt...mNotSure=1
Yes he is
He was about 1.85 when we were playing together he became 2.00 in two summers
He is from Samsun , played for Yolspor first (States Road Agency's team - amateur)
Interesting, an old teammate of mine when I played for PAOK's teenage team (16-18), he also ended up playing for Oly, although warmed the bench most of the time :p, he came back to PAOK, is owed back money by the club and now has moved on to another smaller Greek team. Stil, he wasn't any amazing talent, but he had the necessary connections to push him through and he became a respectable professional
