(Sep 19, 2011, 7:58 am)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]All of the USA territorial islands are born with USA citizenship. Puerto Rico, Jamaica, US Virgin Islands are all USA citizens from birth. Maybe the greatest Greek player ever Nick Galis, was, born and breed in USA. He leaned his skills in the New York, New Jersey area. He played basketball at the University Seton Hall. Was hired by the Celtics before leaving for Greece. Same with Americans Michael Bramos, and Nick Calathes born, schooled and trained in American universities. I saw an interview with these guys speaking English they both have standard American accents. Sure these guys may have Greek blood but these guys don't represent "GREEK" basketball they represent American basketball. Other than blood they are no different than Bo McCalebb. All three are American products both in citizenship and training.
So you live in Canada yet know more about Greek citizenship than you do the Geography and customs of your Neighbors USA and islands etc... Hmmm Maybe you follow the old Greek adage "No thyself" too strictly. Maybe you should also know a little of where you are and your neighbors location, history and customs. 
Do homework my friend...
What you just posted is insignificant and hokum. I also suggest you read exactly what I wrote about Dunkan, and don't deviate and digress from the topic like a drunkard. That being not his naturalization, but the fact that he played for another 'NATIONAL TEAM.' Getting back to the Hellenes now. They do not, and will not ever represent U.S basketball. Before Calathes endeavoured to come to Hellas his basketball was absolutely atrocious, and since he joined Panathinaikos his basketball has improved 100%. Fundamentally the NCAA taught him the basics, but the Greeks how to play.
Galis was a freak of nature and still lives in Hellas. So much for loving America and crappy old Jersey.
And Bramos will improve another 100% when he eventually comes to a Hellenic basketball club. Koufos himself in Greek said he's 100% Greek, and as am I. That a problem for you? All your arguments are totally and unequivocally without any substance.
I also suggest you put those questions to those guys and not me. They are playing for the country they love, and that definitely isn't yours!! I doubt they'd get a genuine chance to play NBA basketball with any of your major clubs, and if they did, they'd be second and third stringers. Maybe even get hurled to your pathetic D-League, which is full of scrubs.
Don't come in here being all satirical and arrogant with me little man. Next time take your buncombe elsewhere, and not with me. You have no knowledge of Greek law, and you certainly seem clueless to the fact that I know every single player past or present that has played for Hellas. Maybe your arrogance has gotten the better of you. And you being a Yank have no idea about Canada either, so spare me your insolence and bigotry. Are we clear??
Teo the point is that this discussion has been completely side tracked. There are two ways for foreigners to play on a national team. One is through family and the other is to get handed a passport for non-family reasons (length of stay in the country or simply because the country felt like it).
Family ties is definitely less controversial and we really should focus this dialogue on non-family linked naturalization.
There were some anti-foreigner comments made earlier in this thread which runs counterintuitive to the makeup of the current Greek national team. That's the point.
I am certainly not implying that Koufos, Bramos and Calathes shouldn't play for Greece. I am 100% fine with them playing for Greece. What I am not fine with is this anti-American rhetoric in this thread when 3 players on Greece were born in the US, raised in the US and played high school and college ball in the US.
Going back to the original point of discussion before it was derailed I can completely follow the logic that players should only be allowed to play if they have a family link. I don't necessarily agree, but I can understand the push back on players who have no family link, albeit this cannot just be a no American policy as Serge Ibaka definitely falls into this category. The only difference between the situation of Ibaka and McCalebb is that Ibaka played professionally in Spain.
(Sep 19, 2011, 10:05 am)Fivepack Wrote: [ -> ]What you just posted is insignificant and hokum. I also suggest you read exactly what I wrote about Dunkan, and don't deviate and digress from the topic like a drunkard. That being not his naturalization, but the fact that he played for another 'NATIONAL TEAM.' Getting back to the Hellenes now. They do not, and will not ever represent U.S basketball. Before Calathes endeavoured to come to Hellas his basketball was absolutely atrocious, and since he joined Panathinaikos his basketball has improved 100%. Fundamentally the NCAA taught him the basics, but the Greeks how to play.
Galis was a freak of nature and still lives in Hellas. So much for loving America and crappy old Jersey. And Bramos will improve another 100% when he eventually comes to a Hellenic basketball club. Koufos himself in Greek said he's 100% Greek, and as am I. That a problem for you? All your arguments are totally and unequivocally without any substance.
I also suggest you put those questions to those guys and not me. They are playing for the country they love, and that definitely isn't yours!! I doubt they'd get a genuine chance to play NBA basketball with any of your major clubs, and if they did, they'd be second and third stringers. Maybe even get hurled to your pathetic D-League, which is full of scrubs.
Don't come in here being all satirical and arrogant with me little man. Next time take your buncombe elsewhere, and not with me. You have no knowledge of Greek law, and you certainly seem clueless to the fact that I know every single player past or present that has played for Hellas. Maybe your arrogance has gotten the better of you. And you being a Yank have no idea about Canada either, so spare me your insolence and bigotry. Are we clear??
Yes I've been reading what you said. I'm just pointing out that some of your facts are mistaken. For example at one point you seem confused about whether Tim Duncan was from Puerto Rico or Virgin Islands. You totally missed my point about Galis and the others. I never said they were NOT Greeks. The only point was they are products of the USA basketball system not Greek system. That was my only point there. Again I never claimed that these guys were not Greeks. You make claims that USA "stole" its own citizen Tim Duncan. I'm simply saying that's not true.
When did Tim Duncan play basketball for the Virgin Islands national team?
(Sep 19, 2011, 7:42 am)Fivepack Wrote: [ -> ]I stressed out the fact that Duncan played basketball for the Virgin Islands. Clearly a double standard and a major hypocrisy by the U.S. You can't play for TWO national teams Skangles!! Like I said, do some homework, and don't try to pull the wool over my eyes. And read the FIBA rules while you're at it too!! The NBA are cheaters, and will always cheat. I'll have the last laugh thanks.. 
1.
when did Tim Duncan play basketball for the Virgin Islands national team?
2.Yes you can play for 2 national teams in certain instances. Read the rules...
3.Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands are two different countries...
4.NBA has nothing to do with this. Tim Duncan was born USA citizen.
If ever there was a poster child for a no foreigner national team it is Lithuania. Now I can try to spin this as "look it how great Lithuania is, it doesn't accept foreigners" and re-emphasize this point over several posts. However, the reality is that Lithuania nationality law is extremely strict. Lithuanian law does not permit dual citizenship so the only way a foreigner can sport the Lietuva jersey is to change his citizenship or buy a replica off of Ebay
Thus if a talented American player with Lithuanian parents wants represent his parents' country he'd have to renounce his US citizenship. It is a high price to pay so I highly doubt we'll ever see it happen. I do not view this as a positive but it is the current political policy.
(Sep 19, 2011, 2:43 pm)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]1.when did Tim Duncan play basketball for the Virgin Islands national team?
2.Yes you can play for 2 national teams in certain instances. Read the rules...
3.Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands are two different countries...
4.NBA has nothing to do with this. Tim Duncan was born USA citizen.
"Duncan of the U.S. Virgin Islands is the only winner not born in the United States. Duncan is an American citizen, but is considered an "international" player by the NBA because he was NOT born in one of the fifty states or Washington, D.C.[5] No player trained entirely outside the U.S. has won the award; Duncan played U.S. college basketball at Wake Forest. The 2011 All-Star Game MVP was Bryant.[6] " Pathetic!!
No you can't play for two national teams. I'll take back the comment about Duncan playing for the Virgin Islands, that was my mistake. If he's SOOOO American why is he considered an
International player for? That makes no sense, and certainly indicates a major contradiction or a contradiction in terms from the U.S.of A.
Puerto Rico and the V.I's are two different countries!! LOL!! No kidding!! Under U.S. control!! What's your point? Anything your country engages in or has ever engaged in is absolutely
SHADY!!
ALL HELLENIC BASKETBALL PLAYERS ARE 1OO% HELLENIC!! >> WE DON"T WANT FOREIGNERS ON OUR TEAM!!! Not just anybody can wear the Blue and White Jersey. We don't use naturalized players and NEVER will!! We keep our team pure and genuinely genuine Greek. If you can't comprehend this, don't bother posting trash about OUR players.
(Sep 19, 2011, 10:48 pm)Fivepack Wrote: [ -> ]"Duncan of the U.S. Virgin Islands is the only winner not born in the United States. Duncan is an American citizen, but is considered an "international" player by the NBA because he was NOT born in one of the fifty states or Washington, D.C.[5] No player trained entirely outside the U.S. has won the award; Duncan played U.S. college basketball at Wake Forest. The 2011 All-Star Game MVP was Bryant.[6] " Pathetic!!
No you can't play for two national teams. I'll take back the comment about Duncan playing for the Virgin Islands, that was my mistake. If he's SOOOO American why is he considered an International player for? That makes no sense, and certainly indicates a major contradiction or a contradiction in terms from the U.S.of A.
Puerto Rico and the V.I's are two different countries!! LOL!! No kidding!! Under U.S. control!! What's your point? Anything your country engages in or has ever engaged in is absolutely SHADY!!
ALL HELLENIC BASKETBALL PLAYERS ARE 1OO% HELLENIC!! >> WE DON"T WANT FOREIGNERS ON OUR TEAM!!! Not just anybody can wear the Blue and White Jersey. We don't use naturalized players and NEVER will!! We keep our team pure and genuinely genuine Greek. If you can't comprehend this, don't bother posting trash about OUR players.
1.
The USA and the NBA are not the same organization. So if the NBA calls him an international this does not have anything to do with FIBA or USA. All that matters is that he is a USA citizen. So according to FIBA it is perfectly legal.
There is nothing shady about it. Tim Duncan has been a USA citizen since birth. Nothing shady or illegal here. I should add that the NBA would probably consider Americans Bramos and Calethes domestic players because they were trained in the USA main land. Also American Tony Parker is considered intentional because he was trained in France. Again this is an NBA standard this has nothing to do with USA, FIBA, Greece.
2.
Yes a person can play for 2 national teams. Yes you were wrong about Duncan and other things. There are a few ways that FIBA will allow it. One is if a person with dual citizenship plays for Junior national team of one country. He can play for the senior national team of another country. Another way is if a player has dual citizenship and wants to play for another country then the old country has to release him and FIBA must approve. Here is the link below of the official rules. You can clearly read that a player can play for 2 national teams over his career. You should know that there are many cases in FIBA history that players have played for 2 national teams. Here's the link read article 16 "Players with two nationalities":
http://www.fiba.com/downloads/v3_expe/ag...LAYERS.pdf
3. My only point in bringing up Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico not being the same was in response to your earlier post that seem to claim Tim Duncan was from Puerto Rico. Many things you have said are mistakes, false accusations etc. I should list things you are "mistaken" about. Here you go:
A. Tim Duncan playing for 2 national teams.
B. Tim Duncan possibly being Puertorican BUT he is from V.I.
C. You said that it is not legally possible to play for two national teams. You were wrong again. there are many examples of it mostly in Europe.
D. You said USA "cheated" and "stole" Tim Duncan BUT the truth is he had American citizenship since birth.
4.
Again I never said Greek uses naturalized players. I simply said that Greece uses American players that were born and bred in USA. Meaning their basketball skills are a product of USA system. That is the simple truth. American Tony Parker grew in France. His dad is American BUT his skills were forged in France.
Finally You have given false information both about FIBA, Tim Duncan, and USA. If anything is shady here its you giving false information about FIBA rules.
(Sep 20, 2011, 1:23 am)TeoTheGreek13 Wrote: [ -> ]Dude, we understand what you're saying, what we don't understand(at least me) is why you're refering to Calathes' and Bramos' style of play(American) all the time?!?! 
Ok, we know they were born, grew up and learned to play ball in US but why you have to mention it all the time?? 
I just don't get that...
Ok Teo my friend I'm really only talking To Fivepack here. Zeus posted that the team should reflect the country strength not foreign strength. That was my only point with him was how does players trained else where truly reflect ones countries strength? Since then the post have been directed to Fivepack.
To be clear I have no problem with Greece NT view of naturalization. I also believe countries should do what they want.
Fivepack was making up facts about USA, FIBA, Tim Duncan I was only correcting him
I also have my own strict views on such things. For example Tony Parker is an American citizen by blood(his father) BUT he was raised in France. I would not like him playing for our national team. He is an amazing player BUT other players represent USA better. America is his home he is 100% American BUT he was not trained here. I would rather Bramos or Calethes represent USA than Parker. I'm not saying I want either of those guys just if I had a choice I'd choose the Greeks over Parker.
(Sep 20, 2011, 12:16 am)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]1. The USA and the NBA are not the same organization. So if the NBA calls him an international this does not have anything to do with FIBA or USA. All that matters is that he is a USA citizen. So according to FIBA it is perfectly legal. There is nothing shady about it. Tim Duncan has been a USA citizen since birth. Nothing shady or illegal here. I should add that the NBA would probably consider Americans Bramos and Calethes domestic players because they were trained in the USA main land. Also American Tony Parker is considered intentional because he was trained in France. Again this is an NBA standard this has nothing to do with USA, FIBA, Greece.
2. Yes a person can play for 2 national teams. Yes you were wrong about Duncan and other things. There are a few ways that FIBA will allow it. One is if a person with dual citizenship plays for Junior national team of one country. He can play for the senior national team of another country. Another way is if a player has dual citizenship and wants to play for another country then the old country has to release him and FIBA must approve. Here is the link below of the official rules. You can clearly read that a player can play for 2 national teams over his career. You should know that there are many cases in FIBA history that players have played for 2 national teams. Here's the link read article 16 "Players with two nationalities":
http://www.fiba.com/downloads/v3_expe/ag...LAYERS.pdf
3. My only point in bringing up Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico not being the same was in response to your earlier post that seem to claim Tim Duncan was from Puerto Rico. Many things you have said are mistakes, false accusations etc. I should list things you are "mistaken" about. Here you go:
A. Tim Duncan playing for 2 national teams.
B. Tim Duncan possibly being Puertorican BUT he is from V.I.
C. You said that it is not legally possible to play for two national teams. You were wrong again. there are many examples of it mostly in Europe.
D. You said USA "cheated" and "stole" Tim Duncan BUT the truth is he had American citizenship since birth.
4. Again I never said Greek uses naturalized players. I simply said that Greece uses American players that were born and bred in USA. Meaning their basketball skills are a product of USA system. That is the simple truth. American Tony Parker grew in France. His dad is American BUT his skills were forged in France.
Finally You have given false information both about FIBA, Tim Duncan, and USA. If anything is shady here its you giving false information about FIBA rules.
After looking at all articles I'm afraid I was correct. After the age of 18 you can only play for ONE national team, without getting into the technicalities of the rules. There are special circumstances where you can play for another NT, but that's meaningless and very rare indeed. I'm not interested below the age bracket of 18.
Pay attention to Articles 16,17, 23, 24..
Your A and B facts are a load of guff. I made a simple error, so there's no need to press the matter. Your C excuse is a load of 'Baloney.' I want proof!!!!! Your D fact along with your C, is colossal bullshit.
They are a product of U.S Basketball? Shall we ask them? That's not only ambiguous, but ridiculous. Let's rehash. They're all playing the game in Europe bar Koufos, who eventually will come. They initially learned the basics of basketball in your country. That being Crappy NCAA. And now they learning to play pro-ball the correct way, and NOT the NBA way. NBA basketball actually sucks hard, and I've been to many a 'Craptors' games!! Oh and by the way, its a CANADIAN invention and idea, NOT from your country!! Ingest that as well!!
Not interested in France or the French NBA scrubs. To be honest Hellas could do without
ALL the Hellenic-American players. It doesn't concern me one iota. The problem is, being GREEK is in your DNA, something YOU will never understand, it's all intrinsic dude. I won't bother explaining that either.
Finally I gave no false information, but you embellished your posts, and belittled mine. No matter.
Now why don't you explain
Wilkins, Ewing, Olajuwon, and Irving. Explain that to the people, and the pathetic cheaters your NBA is??? Go ahead, it's homework time.
No matter where they were born , greeks feel they are greek can play for greece.
But ı strongly object on identifying all cases of naturalization as cheating. Countries and regions have their unique conditions. USA, Canada and Austrailia for example are colonial countries and their people have their roots from somewhere else, so their case is not naturalization . That can be valid for the examples below.
Germany-Austria-Poland
Baltic Countries
Core states of former USSR
Former Yugoslavian states
Turkey-former Ottoman Balkan states
Benelux countries
Commonwealth of GB
Etc.
McCaleb's case is a one I don't approve but I believe it will be influental on of their basketball community.
I wrote those before but I just wanted to express them again. Briefly your debate is a bit unnecessaryly rough, in my opinion.
(Sep 20, 2011, 1:54 am)Raze Lupin Wrote: [ -> ]Zeus posted that the team should reflect the country strength not foreign strength. That was my only point with him was how does players trained else where truly reflect ones countries strength?
Yeah what I meant with that statement was not only pertaining to Greek players having trained in Greece only. Players having bloodline of a certain country until 3rd generation should be allowed, especially when the person has the surname linking them to their specific country. What I AM against is naturalization of outright foreigners playing for a NT, irrespectice of if they've lived in the country a long time, or have a wife from the same NT's country. Like McCalebb for FYROM, Draper for Croatia, Holden for Russia, Kellati for Poland, etc., etc.,
Mind you, Hellas wouldn't have a problem just using home-grown talent for the NT, there are so many talented young kids playing back home, but unfortunately the sad, narrow-minded reality in Greece isn't you becoming a pro if you're talented, but about having the right (and financially strong) connections to get you into pro basketball. Effectively you actually PAY to become a pro, believe it or not.
(Sep 20, 2011, 5:18 am)Fivepack Wrote: [ -> ]After looking at all articles I'm afraid I was correct. After the age of 18 you can only play for ONE national team, without getting into the technicalities of the rules. There are special circumstances where you can play for another NT, but that's meaningless and very rare indeed. I'm not interested below the age bracket of 18. Pay attention to Articles 16,17, 23, 24..
Your A and B facts are a load of guff. I made a simple error, so there's no need to press the matter. Your C excuse is a load of 'Baloney.' I want proof!!!!! Your D fact along with your C, is colossal bullshit.
They are a product of U.S Basketball? Shall we ask them? That's not only ambiguous, but ridiculous. Let's rehash. They're all playing the game in Europe bar Koufos, who eventually will come. They initially learned the basics of basketball in your country. That being Crappy NCAA. And now they learning to play pro-ball the correct way, and NOT the NBA way. NBA basketball actually sucks hard, and I've been to many a 'Craptors' games!! Oh and by the way, its a CANADIAN invention and idea, NOT from your country!! Ingest that as well!!
Not interested in France or the French NBA scrubs. To be honest Hellas could do without ALL the Hellenic-American players. It doesn't concern me one iota. The problem is, being GREEK is in your DNA, something YOU will never understand, it's all intrinsic dude. I won't bother explaining that either.
Finally I gave no false information, but you embellished your posts, and belittled mine. No matter.
Now why don't you explain Wilkins, Ewing, Olajuwon, and Irving. Explain that to the people, and the pathetic cheaters your NBA is??? Go ahead, it's homework time.
NO you were wrong you said that a person can not play for two national teams. You never said anything about age or special circumstances. You simply said
"You can't play for two national teams!!" That statement is 100% wrong because you can play for two national teams. It's 100% possible. Its legal by FIBA. Therefore You gave false information. you can not deny this.
You can have a problem or hate USA all you want BUT that doesn't stop the point that your wrong. Olajuwon was naturalized.
Wilkins, Ewing, Duncan, Kyrie Irving are all USA citizens from birth. There is no need to explain anything. They can legally play for USA. USA didn't steal any of those players it was all legal. You keep giving false information.
"Finally you gave no false information"?? You said a person can't play for two national teams. that is false information. That is clearly false. Can a person play for two national teams? That is a simple question. you answered "no" that's wrong.
I won't give much a reply to NBA sucks or NCAA is crappy comments. NBA are cheaters etc... USA sucks blah blah That is your opinion it has nothing to do with the fact you lied about FIBA rules and Tim Duncan. The Canadian's invented basketball stuff is also off point.
Here is simple logic when you give "mistaken" information that is false. This makes your point false. This is especially true in this case. You gave false information, about Tim Duncan, USA and FIBA. Everyone can read your post you can't deny all your mistakes of false information. Should a person that gives so much false information. You act like its ok to give false information to prove a point in a discussion.
PS if this was a court of law and you accused USA of cheating then brought false information about Tim Duncan and others. The case would be dismissed. Why should a judge or jury believe you when you make up facts?? Did you not read the FIBA laws before I sent you a link?? Did you make up your own FIBA rules then try to prove them? In any case you were mistaken.
(Sep 20, 2011, 10:55 am)TeoTheGreek13 Wrote: [ -> ]+1!!! 
What does the statement he made have to do with the price of tea in China or the fact that gravity pulls at a rate of 9.8 m/s^2?
(Sep 20, 2011, 1:35 pm)ZEUS Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah what I meant with that statement was not only pertaining to Greek players having trained in Greece only. Players having bloodline of a certain country until 3rd generation should be allowed, especially when the person has the surname linking them to their specific country. What I AM against is naturalization of outright foreigners playing for a NT, irrespectice of if they've lived in the country a long time, or have a wife from the same NT's country. Like McCalebb for FYROM, Draper for Croatia, Holden for Russia, Kellati for Poland, etc., etc.,
Mind you, Hellas wouldn't have a problem just using home-grown talent for the NT, there are so many talented young kids playing back home, but unfortunately the sad, narrow-minded reality in Greece isn't you becoming a pro if you're talented, but about having the right (and financially strong) connections to get you into pro basketball. Effectively you actually PAY to become a pro, believe it or not.
I 100% understand your point.
The situation would be less controversial if every country had the exact same immigration laws. This is not the case and FIBA has the problem of regulating what can be a mess. Countries like USA,Canada, Australia have very lenient citizenship laws. Where as many other countries are stricter. I believe the eastern European countries are far stricter. The Holden situation kinda surprised me. FIBA has a mess on their hands. Allowing only one naturalized player is a decent compromise (IMHO) given all the different countries and views involved.
People suck, for the good of basketball things need to change everywhere....
(Sep 20, 2011, 8:58 am)vakasimo2 Wrote: [ -> ]No matter where they were born , greeks feel they are greek can play for greece.
But ı strongly object on identifying all cases of naturalization as cheating. Countries and regions have their unique conditions. USA, Canada and Austrailia for example are colonial countries and their people have their roots from somewhere else, so their case is not naturalization . That can be valid for the examples below.
Germany-Austria-Poland
Baltic Countries
Core states of former USSR
Former Yugoslavian states
Turkey-former Ottoman Balkan states
Benelux countries
Commonwealth of GB
Etc.
McCaleb's case is a one I don't approve but I believe it will be influental on of their basketball community.
I wrote those before but I just wanted to express them again. Briefly your debate is a bit unnecessaryly rough, in my opinion.
You show a good understanding that different countries have different traditions and rules based on their interaction with other countries. The far western countries France, Spain, Portugal, Britain ideologies are different from someone that is Greek, Serbia, Lietuva. France, Spain, Portugal, England basically colonized most of the world at point. Most of Africa, the Americas, India, parts of Asia, Australia. If its about genetics then a very large portion of USA citizens and Americans in general can play for for England, Spain, France. A good friend and colleague of mine is a professor. Her doctorate in Statistics and genetics. she does research in European studies and American studies.
Some of the findings are very interesting.
My comment was off point but this subject lends to other and interesting discussions.
