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Pre-Olympic tournament 2012

#1 User is offline   TeoTheGreek13 Icon

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:34 PM

EUROPE
Russia
F.Y.R.O.M.
Lithuania
Greece

SOUTH AMERICA
Puerto Rico
Dominican Republic
Venezuela

AFRICA
Angola
Nigeria

ASIA
South Korea
Jordan

OCEANIA
New Zealand



Even though I don't know what the tournament's format will be I think that the three teams who qualify for the Olympics will be Greece, Russia and one out of Lithuania, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic!!! B)

This post has been edited by TeoTheGreek13: 25 September 2011 - 07:35 PM

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:36 PM

Some of the rumoured candidates: Puerto Rico, Russia, FYROM and Lithuania.
Respect and thanks for everything: Alvertis, Bodiroga, Jasikevicius, Radja, Wilkins, Vrankovic, Fotsis, Rebraca, Kattash, Gentile, Koch, Middleton, Kutluay, Rogers, Papadopoulos, Becirovic, Tomasevic, Siskauskas, Pekovic, Lakovic, Vujanic, Chatzivrettas, Maljkovic, Spanoulis and many more to follow in the near future.
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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:44 PM

TeoTheGreek13, I noticed you underrate Lithuania somehow, unless you have inside information that Kemzura is going with the same strategy and roster picks, than I agree :agree:

However, if we'll have healthy Kleiza on the roster and Mačiulis, Lithuania is favourite in this tournament.

Greece will improve with Spanoulis (leadership), but your 3 position and even 4 is pretty weak. You'll have serious proplems against both Russia and Lithuania because of that. Also, Greece is lacking shooters as always. Since DD is gone, now that is even more obvious. Calathes basically can't shoot, Zisis is unstable, Spanoulis' strongest spot also is not perimeter game. However, I rank Greece as top favourites with Lithuania in this tournament.

Russia is very solid, but to be honest they are unpredictable. Just look how they choked in 2008 Olympics and 2009 Eurobasket. However, with full roster they can beat anybody, just as well as to lose.

Macedonia will face the thing which is called reality ticket. It's one thing to have some good tournament, another - to deliver year by year. Lithuania, Greece and even Russia will come up rock solid and highly motivated against them.

No idea how Puerto Rico looks these days, but they should be among the better teams.

This post has been edited by straight forward: 25 September 2011 - 07:53 PM


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Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:48 PM

View Poststraight forward, on 25 September 2011 - 07:44 PM, said:

TeoTheGreek13, I noticed you underrate Lithuania somehow, unless you have inside information that Kemzura is going with the same strategy and roster picks, than I agree :agree:

However, if we'll have healthy Kleiza on the roster and Mačiulis, Lithuania is favourite in this tournament.

Greece will improve with Spanoulis (leadership), but your 3 position and even 4 is pretty weak. You'll have serious proplems against both Russia and Lithuania because of that. Also, Greece is lacking shooters as always. Since DD is gone, now that is even more obvious. Calathes basically can't shoot, Zisis is unstable, Spanoulis' strongest spot also is not perimeter game. However, I rank Greece as top favourites with Lithuania in this tournament.

Russia is very solid, but to be honest they are unpredictable. Just look how they choked in 2008 Olympics and 2009 Eurobasket. However, with full roster they can beat anybody, just as well as to lose.

Macedonia will face the thing which is called reality ticket. It's one thing to have some good tournament, another - to deliver year by year. Lithuania, Greece and even Russia will come up rock solid and highly motivated against them.

No idea how Puerto Rico looks these days, but they should be among the better teams.

First of all Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic got some individuals that are better than most of your individuls(maybe with an exception of Kleiza).
I don't underestimate Lithuania, I just think that the two teams that have the best chances of reaching Olympic Games are Greece and Russia! B)
I have to say though, if I had to say which team I think will be the third one, of course I would say Lithuania!!! :thup:

Well in 3 position I don't think we have a problem! ;) Stratos Perperoglou, Kostas Papanikolaou and hopefully Panagiotis Vasilopoulos would be perfect. Perperoglou and Vasilopoulos are great players, for sure they have some drawbacks but in total they are very good! Plus the young gun Papanikolaou who showed some of his quality in his first tournament with the senior Greek team!!! :thup: :thup: :thup:
In 4 position, in my opinion, we have the best power forward playing in Europe, as a starter, Antonis Fotsis! :thup: Then we have Mavrokefalidis who's a great offnsive player but unfortunately is 99% sure that he's never going to play for Greece. Tsartsaris is too old and Kaimakoglou is just a role player. When Fotsis is on the bench, Kaimakoglou can cover him pretty well though! BUT, we still have the opportunity to put Bourousis as a power forward(we have done it many times before!! :thup: ) as he has everything a PF should have(quickness, great defense, long and mid range shot and great inside game)!!! B) So, no problemo!!! :crazy:
No, I don't think we'll have a problem because of that!!! ;)

Indeed, Greece has a problem in long range shooting as always but also Greece, as always, covers this problem through some players' great personality and great skills!!! ;) :thup:
And I think that on the other side, Lithuania lacks in players with great personality(considering that Saras and Siskauskas will not be there). :bag:
You only have Kleiza but is a controversial issue whether he has a great personality or not. Is a similar case to Teodosic! He can be a great leader who carries his team on his shoulders but he can be the vulnerable part of his team and the one who will burn his own team and teammates! Double-edged knife. :bag: :thudown:

Russia is not unpredictable. They are one of the most consistent teams in the world for the past 4 years! :thup:
This year they had a problem in center position but next year Kaun will be back and they will be full in every position!!!

FYROM indeed will be a major disappointment for those who think that they are a great team... :bag: :baby:

*I think Lithuania has many talented players but without a strong personality, as I said before, to lead them. You don't have a coach too. Your coach in Eurobasket 2011 was Saras, I hope you noticed that! ;)
It won't be an easy tournament for Lithuania. You'll pretty much depend on Kleiza.
I hope Saras and Siskauskas choose to play next year. Then, you'll have your leaders and things will become more easy!!! ;)

This post has been edited by TeoTheGreek13: 25 September 2011 - 08:54 PM

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 09:19 PM

View PostTeoTheGreek13, on 25 September 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

First of all Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic got some individuals that are better than most of your individuls(maybe with an exception of Kleiza).
I don't underestimate Lithuania, I just think that the two teams that have the best chances of reaching Olympic Games are Greece and Russia! B)
I have to say though, if I had to say which team I think will be the third one, of course I would say Lithuania!!! :thup:

Well in 3 position I don't think we have a problem! ;) Stratos Perperoglou, Kostas Papanikolaou and hopefully Panagiotis Vasilopoulos would be perfect. Perperoglou and Vasilopoulos are great players, for sure they have some drawbacks but in total they are very good! Plus the young gun Papanikolaou who showed some of his quality in his first tournament with the senior Greek team!!! :thup: :thup: :thup:
In 4 position, in my opinion, we have the best power forward playing in Europe, as a starter, Antonis Fotsis! :thup: Then we have Mavrokefalidis who's a great offnsive player but unfortunately is 99% sure that he's never going to play for Greece. Tsartsaris is too old and Kaimakoglou is just a role player. When Fotsis is on the bench, Kaimakoglou can cover him pretty well though! BUT, we still have the opportunity to put Bourousis as a power forward(we have done it many times before!! :thup: ) as he has everything a PF should have(quickness, great defense, long and mid range shot and great inside game)!!! B) So, no problemo!!! :crazy:
No, I don't think we'll have a problem because of that!!! ;)

Indeed, Greece has a problem in long range shooting as always but also Greece, as always, covers this problem through some players' great personality and great skills!!! ;) :thup:
And I think that on the other side, Lithuania lacks in players with great personality(considering that Saras and Siskauskas will not be there). :bag:
You only have Kleiza but is a controversial issue whether he has a great personality or not. Is a similar case to Teodosic! He can be a great leader who carries his team on his shoulders but he can be the vulnerable part of his team and the one who will burn his own team and teammates! Double-edged knife. :bag: :thudown:

Russia is not unpredictable. They are one of the most consistent teams in the world for the past 4 years! :thup:
This year they had a problem in center position but next year Kaun will be back and they will be full in every position!!!

FYROM indeed will be a major disappointment for those who think that they are a great team... :bag: :baby:

*I think Lithuania has many talented players but without a strong personality, as I said before, to lead them. You don't have a coach too. Your coach in Eurobasket 2011 was Saras, I hope you noticed that! ;)
It won't be an easy tournament for Lithuania. You'll pretty much depend on Kleiza.
I hope Saras and Siskauskas choose to play next year. Then, you'll have your leaders and things will become more easy!!! ;)



Who are these individuals of PR and Dominican Rep.? Not that I'm trying to underrate them, I have no reasons to do so.

Stratos Perperoglou, Kostas Papanikolaou, Vasilopoulos. All too weak in my account, except maybe Papanikolaou, but he probably will be lacking one or two years experience. Perperoglou is soft and inconsistent. Vasilopoulos comes, gets his fouls and sits down - that's basically his role for any team. Papanikolou probably will be a good player, but later in the future, IMO.

With all respect to you guys and your love to Fotsis, he's just a role player (strong one) and he is barely in competition with Kleiza. Sorry, different potential, different skills, completely different personalities. Greek fans underrate this strong player usually. I know he was a huge prospect, actually he even looked like that when he was younger, but couldn't live up to his potential, ended up as solid role player for top clubs. However, Fotsis is a solid card, but basically the only one, as Tsartsaris is too old and I'm not impressed with Kaimakoglou. However, my thesis here is that Greece can't match Mačiulis (3) and Kleiza (4). Actually, no other country except USA could match this in WC 2010 (one tournament though, hopefully we'll see them both in Olympics qualification). Bourousis can't play 4. Imagine him against Kleiza, the latter is too times faster. There probably also will be Motiejunas, also very fast 4.

As for personalities, off course we are lacking such guy as young Šaras. But who is Šaras in Greek NT? :) Well it was Pap and DD, but both are gone. As for future leaders Valančiūnas will be the one. Great fighter/competitor and the natural born leader, in his own way.

Finally, players and not personalities playing on the court.

However, it's my picture. It's your choice how to rank the teams.

BTW, I don't want Šaras on the team. He had a good tournament till the very most important games. Unfortunately he totally f... up in these games and couldn't deal with leadership and even his nerves and pressure. He was very humble and very good role player till the clutch games, but when the ball got hot, he couldn't just play as a role player, he started to rule (including Kemzura). And that was one of the main reasons why we failed. Šaras is the legend and always will, but he can't play in NT team anymore because here he's the leader and he can't be the leader anymore. As simple as that. He will be brilliant for PAO as a role player and under Obradovic who won't let himself to involve with Saras stuff, Kemzura did unfortunately.

Lithuania 2012 should be young, fast, athletic and hungry. We have all tools for that, now it's up to Kemzura.

This post has been edited by straight forward: 25 September 2011 - 09:25 PM


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Posted 25 September 2011 - 09:48 PM

View Poststraight forward, on 25 September 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

Who are these individuals of PR and Dominican Rep.? Not that I'm trying to underrate them, I have no reasons to do so.

Stratos Perperoglou, Kostas Papanikolaou, Vasilopoulos. All too weak in my account, except maybe Papanikolaou, but he probably will be lacking one or two years experience. Perperoglou is soft and inconsistent. Vasilopoulos comes, gets his fouls and sits down - that's basically his role for any team. Papanikolou probably will be a good player, but later in the future, IMO.

With all respect to you guys and your love to Fotsis, he's just a role player (strong one) and he is barely in competition with Kleiza. Sorry, different potential, different skills, completely different personalities. Greek fans underrate this strong player usually. I know he was a huge prospect, actually he even looked like that when he was younger, but couldn't live up to his potential, ended up as solid role player for top clubs. However, Fotsis is a solid card, but basically the only one, as Tsartsaris is too old and I'm not impressed with Kaimakoglou. However, my thesis here is that Greece can't match Mačiulis (3) and Kleiza (4). Actually, no other country except USA could match this in WC 2010 (one tournament though, hopefully we'll see them both in Olympics qualification). Bourousis can't play 4. Imagine him against Kleiza, the latter is too times faster. There probably also will be Motiejunas, also very fast 4.

As for personalities, off course we are lacking such guy as young Šaras. But who is Šaras in Greek NT? :) Well it was Pap and DD, but both are gone. As for future leaders Valančiūnas will be the one. Great fighter/competitor and the natural born leader, in his own way.

Finally, players and not personalities playing on the court.

However, it's my picture. It's your choice how to rank the teams.

BTW, I don't want Šaras on the team. He had a good tournament till the very most important games. Unfortunately he totally f... up in these games and couldn't deal with leadership and even his nerves and pressure. He was very humble and very good role player till the clutch games, but when the ball got hot, he couldn't just play as a role player, he started to rule (including Kemzura). And that was one of the main reasons why we failed. Šaras is the legend and always will, but he can't play in NT team anymore because here he's the leader and he can't be the leader anymore. As simple as that. He will be brilliant for PAO as a role player and under Obradovic who won't let himself to involve with Saras stuff, Kemzura did unfortunately.

Lithuania 2012 should be young, fast, athletic and hungry. We have all tools for that, now it's up to Kemzura.

Probably you haven't seen a lot of Perperoglou and definitely you haven't seen a lot of Vasilopoulos. :bag: Vasilopoulos is not what you think he's for a team. He's a great defender and a capable shooter! :thup: The only thing you got a point at, is that Stratos is soft.
They are both very talented. You probably think that I consider them being super stars. No, I'm just saying that we don't have a problem in 3 position. You also talk about Maciulis like he's Siskauskas... :bag:

Maybe is not us who overrate Fotsis but you who underestimate him.
Fotsis a role player?!?! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
Come on man. Fotsis may be more valuable for a team than Kleiza. Kleiza is just a great scorer. He's got NOTHING ELSE in his game.

Now, about Bourousis - Kleiza matchup at PF, if we want someone to play defense on Kleiza and Fotsis is on the bench, we can easily put Kaimakoglou on him! :thup:

"But who is Šaras in Greek NT?" Maybe you forget Spanoulis!!! By the way, don't be so sure about Diamantidis...! :bag:
*Our respective Valanciunas is Calathes by the way. :thup:

"Finally, players and not personalities playing on the court." You kidding?! <_< When I'm talking about personality I mean his talent and his impact on the game.

**You overrate Maciulis. He's a great player but you are excessive! :bag:


Anyway, the answers will be given in the summer!
I hope Diamantidis will be there! :thup: B)

This post has been edited by TeoTheGreek13: 25 September 2011 - 09:50 PM

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:02 PM

View PostTeoTheGreek13, on 25 September 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

Probably you haven't seen a lot of Perperoglou and definitely you haven't seen a lot of Vasilopoulos. :bag: Vasilopoulos is not what you think he's for a team. He's a great defender and a capable shooter! :thup: The only thing you got a point at, is that Stratos is soft.
They are both very talented. You probably think that I consider them being super stars. No, I'm just saying that we don't have a problem in 3 position. You also talk about Maciulis like he's Siskauskas... :bag:

Maybe is not us who overrate Fotsis but you who underestimate him.
Fotsis a role player?!?! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
Come on man. Fotsis may be more valuable for a team than Kleiza. Kleiza is just a great scorer. He's got NOTHING ELSE in his game.

Now, about Bourousis - Kleiza matchup at PF, if we want someone to play defense on Kleiza and Fotsis is on the bench, we can easily put Kaimakoglou on him! :thup:

"But who is Šaras in Greek NT?" Maybe you forget Spanoulis!!! By the way, don't be so sure about Diamantidis...! :bag:
*Our respective Valanciunas is Calathes by the way. :thup:

"Finally, players and not personalities playing on the court." You kidding?! <_< When I'm talking about personality I mean his talent and his impact on the game.

**You overrate Maciulis. He's a great player but you are excessive! :bag:


Anyway, the answers will be given in the summer!
I hope Diamantidis will be there! :thup: B)



You might have some points about your 3. Overall it's not a bad bunch, a little bit inconsistent, but not bad at all. As for Mačiulis, my point was that none of them could match Mačiulis physicality, energy and temper. Not even Vasilopoulus who is not a bad defender off course.

As for Kleiza being just a great scorer...That's not true. He is so talented scorer that people maybe fail to see that he's one step further in rebounds than most of his competitors. Kleiza can be a tough defender and great rebounder. I can't follow how Fotsis is better rebounder? Even the stats do not show he's better than Kleiza (6,5 rebounds in 09/10 Euroleague's season while Fotsis 5.5). However, I can't see how we can compare Kleiza and Fotsis here, Kleiza is way superior player and that's end of the story. I'm pretty strict here.

Overall, the tournament will clear thing out, you right about that :)

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:26 PM

View Poststraight forward, on 25 September 2011 - 10:02 PM, said:

You might have some points about your 3. Overall it's not a bad bunch, a little bit inconsistent, but not bad at all. As for Mačiulis, my point was that none of them could match Mačiulis physicality, energy and temper. Not even Vasilopoulus who is not a bad defender off course.

As for Kleiza being just a great scorer...That's not true. He is so talented scorer that people maybe fail to see that he's one step further in rebounds than most of his competitors. Kleiza can be a tough defender and great rebounder. I can't follow how Fotsis is better rebounder? Even the stats do not show he's better than Kleiza (6,5 rebounds in 09/10 Euroleague's season while Fotsis 5.5). However, I can't see how we can compare Kleiza and Fotsis here, Kleiza is way superior player and that's end of the story. I'm pretty strict here.

Overall, the tournament will clear thing out, you right about that :)

Firstly, if you want a contender on Maciulis' energy I can easily give you Papanikolaou!!! ;)

Look, every player who comes to PAO has less playing time that he would have in any other team and Fotsis was not an exception! ;)
In 2009-2010 season, Kleiza averaged 30.22 minutes per game while at the same time Fotsis averaged 23.21 minutes per game. :bag: Not fair! B)

Also, if you like stats you should see Fotsis average on rebounds in 2006-2007 season when he played for Dynamo Moscow. He averaged 7 rebounds per game just because he averaged 30.30 minutes per game! ;)
***Fotsis holds the all-time euroleague record for more rebounds in a game with 24!!! :blink: :thup:

Kleiza can't come even close to Fotsis in terms of rebounding(in both ends) and defensive awarness and ablility(marking + blocking shots) Fotsis is also better 3 point shooter who can easily open up the opponent's defense!!! ;)


Fotsis is more valuable than Kleiza. I'm pretty strict here too! ;)

This post has been edited by TeoTheGreek13: 25 September 2011 - 10:30 PM

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:13 PM

Come on, man, it's not even close :) Don't get me wrong, Fotsis is already in Euroleague's history, but the facts are facts. Kleiza as the leader of young NT 2010 was averaging 19 points and 7 rebounds, Fotsis for a young Greek NT 2011 was averaging 11,8 and 4,7 rebounds. Not to mention achievement of Kleiza's team.

Facts are facts, dude. Just as his ability to shoot the threes. Just look at this:



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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:33 PM

View Poststraight forward, on 25 September 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

Come on, man, it's not even close :) Don't get me wrong, Fotsis is already in Euroleague's history, but the facts are facts. Kleiza as the leader of young NT 2010 was averaging 19 points and 7 rebounds, Fotsis for a young Greek NT 2011 was averaging 11,8 and 4,7 rebounds. Not to mention achievement of Kleiza's team.

Facts are facts, dude. Just as his ability to shoot the threes. Just look at this:



Just read carefully what I'm posting.

I told you that Kleiza has much more playing time than Fotsis, is it so difficult to understand man?!?! ;)

Again, Kleiza in WC 2010 averaged 31,2 minutes per game and Fotsis this year averaged 27 mpg PLUS he had two more great rebounders alongside of him, Bourousis and Koufos! B)

As for the video you posted, I don't see him do it every night. With the same logic you're using Fotsis could AVERAGE 24 rebounds for example.
__________________________________________________________________

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:45 PM

Your argument is funny. First of all, difference between 31 minute and 27 is not that big, while their stats are way different. Second of all, concerting NT, Fotsis played in weaker team than Kleiza (achievements talk) and still got less minutes than Kleiza in a better team, doesn't that fact say anything to you? And finally, following by your logic it would mean that Valančiūnas is already way better player than Fotsis, because dude was averaging 8,4 points and 4,1 rebounds in just 15 minutes. Imagine what he would do in 27! :lol:

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:03 AM

View Poststraight forward, on 25 September 2011 - 11:45 PM, said:

Your argument is funny. First of all, difference between 31 minute and 27 is not that big, while their stats are way different. Second of all, concerting NT, Fotsis played in weaker team than Kleiza (achievements talk) and still got less minutes than Kleiza in a better team, doesn't that fact say anything to you? And finally, following by your logic it would mean that Valančiūnas is already way better player than Fotsis, because dude was averaging 8,4 points and 4,1 rebounds in just 15 minutes. Imagine what he would do in 27! :lol:

Talking about funny arguments:
The fact that Fotsis played less minutes than Kleiza played in a better team makes him worst player?!?!?!?! :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :baby:

*Yeah, Valanciunas was scoring 8,4 points per game having Saras to give him the ball under the basket(alone). The whole time he was on the court Lithuania was playing pick n roll with Saras and Jonas...
**I know the difference of 4 minutes is not big but as you can see I wrote something more...
***And dude, you started talking about stats. Have you ever heard that: "stats are the best way to lie"?!?!?! :baby:

The fact is that if someone was asking me who of these two I'd like to have on my team I would definitely go with Antonis! :thup:
And obviously you'd choose Kleiza. :thup:


We can't change each others' mind(although I didn't try to achieve that), so be it!!! B)

This post has been edited by TeoTheGreek13: 26 September 2011 - 12:03 AM

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:06 AM

No hard feelings :) Final statements are fine for me :thup:

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:26 AM

Here is how the tournament worked in 2008 held in Athens.

Four groups of three teams (2 games for each team). Top two teams from each group go on to the quarterfinals, single elimination from there. There is no championship game. The two teams that would square off in the final just get a ticket to the olympics and the championship on the final day becomes the third place game for the final ticket. All of this occurs over a six day span.

First point, with the 2008 tournament held in Athens will they try to rotate the tournament to a different region, thus increasing the odds that FIBA selects either the Venezuela or Puerto Rico bid?

Second point, prior to reading any of the dialogue above, in my opinion there are 5 teams that I see fighting for the 3 spots: Russia, Lithuania, Greece, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. Teams that could sneak in are FYROM (the true Wild Card after beating Greece and Lithuania and fighting Russia very closely twice), New Zealand and Venezuela. I don't give any chance to Asia or Africa.

Straight Forward, to answer your question the Dominican Republic is a bit of a dog and pony show. They have a really good starting five and absolutely no depth on the bench. Their team is literally Al Horford, Charlie Villanueva, Francisco Garcia and Luis Flores. They also have a PF that plays domestically named Jack Michael Martinez. I had never heard of him before but he had a massive tournament averaging 14 points and 12 rebounds per game. Expect him to sign on with a bigger team in the very near future.

Puerto Rico conversely is a much more balanced team in terms of depth. Their main players are Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea, Renaldo Balkman and Old Man Daniel Santiago. They are playing really well right now, although the Dominican Republic wiped the floor with them in the Bronze medal game.

Don't underestimate either team as they can both seriously make a run at the olympics and the odds for both teams increases if FIBA Americas hosts the tournament.

Whilst the discussion above debated the European teams at length, I honestly don't differentiate between Russia, Greece and Lithuania in terms of level of play. I think all three are pretty comparable at full strength not in style play but in terms of the level of success that they can achieve. I will say that Kirilenko is by far the most critical player to his team. If he doesn't play next summer for whatever reason it will be a dagger to Russia, in my opinion.

Teo, regarding your comments about Kleiza did you watch him in the World Championship or are you referring to his play based on his NBA career? Last summer he was an absolute beast (averaged 19 points and 7 rebounds). He was the heart and soul of the Lithuanian team that won bronze and the only team that could shut him down was the US. How will Kleiza come back from injury, that remains to be seen but if he is even a fraction of the player he was in 2010 Lithuania will have no problems with leadership. In the NBA he is a different story, he is a solid role player but not the beast that he was for the national team.

If Fotsis is truly more valuable than Kleiza then it will be great news for Greece as it means he is more valuable than a World Championship All-Tournament team player. This hasn't happened to date but 2012 may be his year.

This post has been edited by skangles: 26 September 2011 - 12:33 AM


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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:36 AM

It's not only about the cold hard stats, it's also about the players supporting say, what has been the subject, Fotsis and Kleiza. Comparing stats between the two players is also relative to how they are instructed to work on the court, according to the team's needs. Unless we see them playing against each other and can pick out the stats from such match-ups, saying which player is better is also a lot down to bias. Both players are successful, albeit Fotsis has been more successful than Kleiza in terms of titles won, but that doesn't take away from Kleiza's value either, because basketball is 5 vs. 5, and not 1 vs. 5.

As far as Mavrokefalidis and Vasilopoulos are concerned, they are just burnt cards. Vasiliadis didn't prove either that he was really good enough and dependable for the NT, when we really needed points from the 3, he just came up short. We will have to look for more viable options on the 4 for us, we'll definitely have Sofo back to muscle up at center, this takes pressure off of Bouroussis, but still he isn't the world's best defender at 4, his lack of strength and size is a detriment to him in this respect. Unfortunately Mavroidis hasn't proved he is a dependable player for the NT either, he just couldn't adapt to the level of play that was expected of him, he blundered quickly, and got benched fast. The 4 is a difficult spot for us to cover, that mega douche-bag Mavrokefalidis could have helped us a good deal but he went and fucked it all up.
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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:41 AM

Perfect post skangles. Yes, Dominican team has individuals. I don't underrate Dominican team, but it's one thing to have some names and competitive team, different - to make a run with European powerhouses. Just as you, I would give more credit to Puerto Rico probably. However, tournament is short and things might happen in these do or day games. Both PR and Dominican Rep are a threat off course.

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:48 AM

Puerto Rico is always a force to never be underestimated, I've never watched the Dominican Republic play, I wouldn't imagine them being powerful much, if not at all, but at the same time, underestimating opponents in the game of basketball these days is something that you cannot afford to do, because nasty surprises can await for even the biggest of teams.
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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:00 AM

The Dominican Republic was never a force in international basketball but they have a bit of a perfect storm brewing right now with two really good NBA players and one NBA All-Star all coming about at the same time. Adding Luis Flores into the mix and the rise of Martinez and the DR has emerged from nowhere into a team that can really make a move (until they run out of gas).

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 02:12 AM

Skangles, no, I'm not talking based neither on his NBA career nor on his NT career. I'm talking based on what I've seen.
The fact that he was in WC's all-tournament team just shows that he was awesome in this particular tournament! :thup:
I think Teodosic was in that team also but I didn't see him in Eurobasket's all-tournament team! :bag:
My point is that you can't have as an argument that he was named in the best five of a tournament. ;)

Fotsis always were a team player and not the guy that will score 30 points or whatever. Maybe that's why you can't understand his true value.
Only if he was playing for your team you'd realise his value! :(
Is a similar case to Diamantidis. If Diamantidis didn't won everything this year(personal awards) some people would still believe that he's just a good player.
Why?! Because he's not a scorer and he's the epitome of the team player(like Fanis Christodoulou that I doubt many of you know him although he was alongside Diamantidis the most complete Greek player ever!!! :thup: ).
Back to the issue, Fotsis helps his team in every possible way. He has only one weakness. He can't play in the low post. If he could do this too he would be just in another level! :thup:

Well, Kleiza has the same problem with Teodosic. They're both super talented but they are irritable and they can destroy what their team was building for the whole game, in a blink of an eye. :thudown:
He can be the best player on the court when he's having a good night and everything goes in but he can be the worst by shooting and missing consistently.
That's his difference with players like Fotsis and Diamantidis. DD and Antonis can help there teams in many other ways if they can't find the touch in a game!!! :thup:
Especially Diamantidis, as he has done many times in the past, he becomes player of the game without scoring a single point! :mellow: He dominates the game without scoring!
None says that players like Kleiza(& Navarro) aren't great but but players like DD and Fotsis are going to help their team no matter the mood they are in, on offense!!! ;) B)


***Skangles, the fact that Kleiza is a great player and the best of your team don't make him a leader! ;) He's not a leader and he'll never be one. :baby:

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 03:01 AM

View PostTeoTheGreek13, on 26 September 2011 - 02:12 AM, said:



Well, Kleiza has the same problem with Teodosic. They're both super talented but they are irritable and they can destroy what their team was building for the whole game, in a blink of an eye. :thudown:
He can be the best player on the court when he's having a good night and everything goes in but he can be the worst by shooting and missing consistently.



Based on what?!? The fact that he has a damaged knee and couldn't play in Eurobasket? He was unbelievable in the World Championship, albeit he had an off game against the US. A lot of the credit needs to go to the US who executed their strategy effectively and the flip side is that players have bad games. On the same note, when Kleiza was shut down no other Lithuanian players stepped up to fill the void. So I am very curious, when exactly the irritable Kleiza has destroyed a game for Lithuania that the rest of the team was building the whole game?

Maybe Kleiza had a FYROM-esque World Championship and won't be able to compete at that level in the future. Maybe, he won't be the same player after a serious knee surgery and a without playing for a year. Nevertheless, the comment above does not seem to be based on any sort of evidence or reality whatsoever.

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