[Raze Lupin]

Many teams in Eurobasket are playing with naturalized players. This is happening around the world. Currently the FIBA rule is one naturalized player. This may change to 2 or more. How do you feel about the current FIBA rule and naturalization?? Many believe Eurobasket is like family competion. Only family play in the family game no outside guest. Please share your opinion friends! YES or NO

[Raze Lupin]

I'm for it...Here is my veiw:

FAMILY
A few posted that international competition is a family game and only family should play. I agree 100% with this analogy. In the family construct we have ways of adding to the family other than birth; marriage and adoption . If you marry or are adopted into a family you can play in the family game. Naturalization is very similar to both. Since ancient times marriage was away of making families stronger. This continues even in modern times. Many of us look for successful traits e.g. Height(tall), strength, intelligence etc.. During the family game if a relative marries Jonas valanciunas or Dwight Howard then he can play in the family game. The Keleti guy from with Poland NT has a Polish wife. Marriage in most societies are valid after the ceremony or after consummation (sex). The children of that union are obviously part of the family. Think Tony Parker, Nickolas Batum most of the french team.... Adoption is another way of adding to family that involves choice. Again many people look for superior traits in the children they adopt. Some families that can't have children look for superior sperm. In all cases families try to grow and or improve themselves. Its a natural primal drive. So why not naturalize a tall player into your family. Countries give passports too the extremely rich, highly educated etc.. to make their counties/families better one way or another why should this be excluded from basketball. Who are we to judge whether or not a strangers family member does or does not belong to that family. Does a outsider have the right to question who you marry, adopt or have sex with? Outsider can not bring to question your family business.

Immigration
I think where people come from determine how the feel about this FIBA law. I'm willing to bet that there is a correlation between nations with strict immigration laws and low immigrant population and the "no" votes. Inversely I bet nations with less strict laws and the "yes" votes or "don't care" votes. I think the no votes are hypocrites. No offense but I see many Eastern Europeans outraged about naturalization for any reason. I'm willing to bet Lietuva, Serbia etc.. Have less genotype and culture diversity in its country than say USA, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, France, Spain, Portugal. I'm also willing to bet that Lietuva, Serbia also have less immigration and immigration population than listed Western countries.

hypocrisy
So why am I calling many of these no voters hypocrites?? Because even though places like Lietuva or Serbia feel very strictly about naturalization rules and immigration they themselves immigrate. Where can you find many Serbians, Lithuanians?? Great Britain, Australia, Canada, USA France, Spain all over the west. London has been called the biggest Lith city outside of Lietuva. Many Serbs go to Canada, Aussie. Why do they leave there so call beloved countries?? To find a better life in education, opportunities, love, survival etc.. Many reasons! So why are they so offended that Ibaka as a teen came to Spain for better opportunity. Same with Mirotic he left for better opportunity. Just maybe they love there new country and the opportunity who knows. So its ok for a Lith or Serb to go to another country pay taxes to support that country; vote if they are citizen and help the economy BUT if Ibaka wants to repay the country that gave him the opportunity its a disgrace! What kind of messed up logic is that? You abandon your country for foreign soil, love, money and you benefit that country by contributing to it society and economy BUT if you play for basketball for your new home its bad. My Serb friend is throwing a citizenship party. Her sister is an Aussie now. They have pics all over Facebook of the papers. They seem happy but I bet if Dwight Howard was in a Serbian uniform they would be pissed....


Like its been said different countries have different rules for citizenship.

Who are we to judge another member of someones family? Who they marry, adopt or accept?

Why are people who are immigrants themselves and represent foreign countries in any ways so against immigrants representing there old/home countries?

I think its funny that a serb or lith is living else where and voting, paying taxes in another country BUT Ibaka whose family have been living for Spain for near a decade is a disgrace to Spain.

[vakasimo2]

I think the subject and the comment has little corelation. Because when I see the poll I understand a professional naturalisation and when I read your cooment, then it seems like poll is about immigration or citizenship.

I voted for NO because I believe national teams must represent nations. But I'm not oppose to legal immigration (without strict conditions) or obtaininig citizenship.

Point is , if a person or his/her family comes to country to settle and live , then he can be citizen and a representative afterwards.
Or if there are strong religional-historical-cultural and lingual bounds between nations then , it can be most welcome to naturalising players. (But I prefer a young age to be trained for the one who is beiing naturalised) Turkey-Central Asia-Balkanic muslims , German-Polish , Old Yugoslavian folks, old soviet states, commonwealth countries, french - old colonies and benlux countries can be good example about that.
But I'm totally opposed to professional naturalisition , because it is not NATURAL.

I think I've made my point.

[Black Urum]

Naturalisation for me can be accepted in some cases... for example if the player has lived and played in that foreign country for some years and has never played for another national team...

And then there are the clown cases such as of FYROM who gives passport to Americans who have never lived there or played there...

[straight forward]

I agree that it should be allowed in some particular cases, bet the rules should be strict. Not less than 5 years living and playing for the country, not being a member of any other NT and so on. Basically, I'm against it, but it helps some countries to develop the game or just to enjoy the possibility to have a competitive BB team.

[vakasimo2]

Black Urum, on 08 September 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

Naturalisation for me can be accepted in some cases... for example if the player has lived and played in that foreign country for some years and has never played for another national team...

And then there are the clown cases such as of FYROM who gives passport to Americans who have never lived there or played there...

Yes Macedonia example is bad, but even Preldzic example is bad too, I think if a player becomes professional then he shouldn't be naturalised even though he plays there for long years.

Or I should say , it must be like that for national teams, for club competition I have no bares , (I mean for the countries has foreigner limitation, naturaliation is used to overcome the limit) For example Preldzic should play for Fenerbahçe as turkish citizen but he shouldn't be playing for turkish nt.

Briefly , I'm saying those to keep national competitions meaningful, other than that there is no problem as a concept.

[ZEUS]

No, naturalization is bad enough that we have it at club level, and a lot of teams end up being polyethnic and the only thing really representing the country's club is the jersey, and not (enough) players coming from that country.

[TeoTheGreek13]

I have post many times my opinion on that issue... NO NATURALIZATION!

I can't understand guys like FYROM supporters that are so happy with wins that couldn't be achieved without American(McCalebb) contribution...
I just can't understand this.

If we had Kobe Bryant in Greek NT and we won every single Eurobasket I wouldn't be happy at all.
Bo McCalebb is like Kobe for FYROM...

By the way, take a look at this: Preldzic: "Turks made me play with their NT".

That's what he said:
"You know very well why I don't play for Slovenia. Turks made me play with their NT. Sad but true. In first, I had choose not to play for any NT, but because I was playing for Fener with Turkish passport, they told me that if I didn't play for Turkey they would take it from me."

[vakasimo2]

TeoTheGreek13, on 08 September 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

I have post many times my opinion on that issue... NO NATURALIZATION!

I can't understand guys like FYROM supporters that are so happy with wins that couldn't be achieved without American(McCalebb) contribution...
I just can't understand this.

If we had Kobe Bryant in Greek NT and we won every single Eurobasket I wouldn't be happy at all.
Bo McCalebb is like Kobe for FYROM...

By the way, take a look at this: Preldzic: "Turks made me play with their NT".

That's what he said:
"You know very well why I don't play for Slovenia. Turks made me play with their NT. Sad but true. In first, I had choose not to play for any NT, but because I was playing for Fener with Turkish passport, they told me that if I didn't play for Turkey they would take it from me."

Preldzic; last janessary

[Led00]

I'll be as short as possible.

NO! No! no! NOOO! Many nooooooooo's! I hate naturalization! Any kind of it. Those who spend 10 years in a country and that country gave them much, those can be part of NT!

[vakasimo2]

Led00, on 08 September 2011 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'll be as short as possible.

NO! No! no! NOOO! Many nooooooooo's! I hate naturalization! Any kind of it. Those who spend 10 years in a country and that country gave them much, those can be part of NT!

A private question ;

How do you train such talented and more important "mentally calm" players ?

[serbian]

TeoTheGreek13, on 08 September 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

I have post many times my opinion on that issue... NO NATURALIZATION!

I can't understand guys like FYROM supporters that are so happy with wins that couldn't be achieved without American(McCalebb) contribution...
I just can't understand this.

If we had Kobe Bryant in Greek NT and we won every single Eurobasket I wouldn't be happy at all.
Bo McCalebb is like Kobe for FYROM...

By the way, take a look at this: Preldzic: "Turks made me play with their NT".

That's what he said:
"You know very well why I don't play for Slovenia. Turks made me play with their NT. Sad but true. In first, I had choose not to play for any NT, but because I was playing for Fener with Turkish passport, they told me that if I didn't play for Turkey they would take it from me."

He denied this. I think it is just a speculation that created by Slovene media.

http://tr.eurosport....095/story.shtml

[vakasimo2]

This debate aded me some and I added my criteria a new item.

- For the nt's whşch are very backwards at fiba ranking, could have naturalized players to an extent.

It would be well for the compettion of basketball public allover the world, and attracts attention of the locals of the subject country as an investnment for future.

[ZEUS]

Look at Stojakovic, he came as a teen to PAOK and left as one of the greatest players PAOK has ever exported, we even naturalized him with the surname 'Kinis', although at the end of the day he wanted to play with Serbia's national team, so we took his wish aboard and let him do exactly whatever he wanted

This post has been edited by ZEUS: 09 September 2011 - 03:14 AM

[stefans]

ZEUS, on 08 September 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

Look at Stojakovic, he came as a teen to PAOK and left as one of the greatest players PAOK has ever exported, we even naturalized him with the surname 'Kinis', although at the end of the day he wanted to play with Serbia's national team, so we took his wish aboard and let him exactly whatever he wanted

There is many Serbian players who owns Greek passport.

[ZEUS]

^ My point being is that we didn't try and roll in Peja to play for our national team, although we have Milosevic who's play for the younger NT levels, but he's Serbian. I think the outcry in Greece would be too much if we had a 'foreigner' playing for us. I really doubt we would ever do something like that.

[skangles]

vakasimo2, on 08 September 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:

This debate aded me some and I added my criteria a new item.

- For the nt's whşch are very backwards at fiba ranking, could have naturalized players to an extent.

It would be well for the compettion of basketball public allover the world, and attracts attention of the locals of the subject country as an investnment for future.

I agree with your point. I don't support players who do not have a strong link to the country playing for that country but it is worth noting that if FYROM continues to make a run because of McCalebb it could springboard the sport in the country. The results of which may be visible 5-10 years from now when kids inspired by this Eurobasket start to become adults. There is no guarantee that this will occur but it is more likely to happen after a strong performance than after an early exit.

I do have a a big issue with what Bulgaria was trying to pull off a few years ago when they hired Gershon and tried to sign, oops I mean recruit a bunch of Americans like Qyntel Woods but the plan got shot down.

[vakasimo2]

skangles, on 09 September 2011 - 03:07 AM, said:

I agree with your point. I don't support players who do not have a strong link to the country playing for that country but it is worth noting that if FYROM continues to make a run because of McCalebb it could springboard the sport in the country. The results of which may be visible 5-10 years from now when kids inspired by this Eurobasket start to become adults. There is no guarantee that this will occur but it is more likely to happen after a strong performance than after an early exit.

I do have a a big issue with what Bulgaria was trying to pull off a few years ago when they hired Gershon and tried to sign, oops I mean recruit a bunch of Americans like Qyntel Woods but the plan got shot down.

Yes , it can develop in either way , still I guess it is worth trying. For example people in turkey -and me - were inspired by petar naumoski at 90's, he added Efes a great value, some other players can do it for nt's.

[Led00]

Nor would I ever wont to see foreigner in my NT. Every country can have good NT's, they just need to invest time and money. And a lot of it. To make infrastructure, to bring experts. I am sure that u can find 20 talented kids everywhere. But that is just to much money and time, it is easier to buy product...

[vakasimo2]

Led00, on 09 September 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

Nor would I ever wont to see foreigner in my NT. Every country can have good NT's, they just need to invest time and money. And a lot of it. To make infrastructure, to bring experts. I am sure that u can find 20 talented kids everywhere. But that is just to much money and time, it is easier to buy product...

Correct, however "products" gives self esteem too and sometimes it is as needed as a proper training.