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2009/10 Euroleague participants

#21 User is offline   Black Urum Icon

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:09 PM

Well, since this thread was based on ITG post it is only fair I moved it in this category.

robbe did you read this thread? If so, can you settle our 'dispute' about Red Star (or Hemofarm)? Because I have seen other people too in different forums and blogs including Red Star in their 30 teams and you don't.

How did you calculate the participants? Roughly talking I think that Italy's 4 spots and France's 3 spots play a key role, but I can't exactly see the whole picture and unite the dots.

So your input would be valuable.
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#22 User is offline   robbe Icon

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 03:28 PM

@Black Urum: Thanks for moving it over.

Red Star/Hemofarm debate
The big question is whether or not Euroleague assigns this spot to the finalist [Red Star], or whether it respects the domestic Serbian Euro ranking, a three year ranking which includes results from the different competitions the teams participate in. In many other countries that had domestic rankings, they don't play a role for Eurolague qualification anymore. There hasn't been official confirmation on this topic yet [on the other hand, there hasn't been official confirmation on a lot of topics, e.g. the ASVEL wildcard], but in some conversations I had it became pretty clear that the domestic ranking will be in effect and hence this spot should be assigned to the 2nd placed team in the ranking, which everybody says is Hemofarm. However, if nobody pulls out, none of the two will participate, according to my calculations. I'll come to that now.

General stuff
As you all know, we have 13 teams with three year A-licences. Those are set.

Maccabi
CSKA
Panathinaikos
Olympiacos
Zalgiris
Efes
Fenerbahce
Siena
Roma
Real
Barcelona
Unicaja
TAU

Then there's the C-licence for the EuroCup winner, a one year direct qualification spot. Now Rytas won the EuroCup, and they're LKL champ too. In their press release from a few months ago, Euroleague addressed this case:

Quote

The Eurocup champion would retain the current prize for winning that competition, namely a one-year C Licence. If a team qualifies as Eurocup champion and later wins its national championship, the team would go to the Euroleague as national champion and the Eurocup C Licence would become a wild card.

Source: Euroleague.net

The wildcard is probably going to be a direct qualification spot, as it is a normal C-licence, the substitute for the EuroCup winner. But we cannot say for sure yet. However, this makes it 14 teams. By the way, I think ALBA Berlin has a good shot at getting this wildcard, if they crash out of the German playoffs tomorrow in Bonn. Bertomeu likes Berlin.

The next step is the B-Licence ranking system, which assigns 8 direct qualification spots, and another 7 for the qualifying rounds. This makes it 22 direct qualification spots and 7 spots in the qualifying rounds. The one remaining spot will be given to a French team, according to Bertomeu's statements in French newspaper "L'equipe" [in case you don't know it, it's a huge, almost legendary daily sportspaper with excellent reputation]. You can read Ballineurope's comments on this article here. This French team would be ASVEL Villeurbanne, in case they didn't qualify through one of the two regular French spots.

Nature of the B-licence ranking
Euroleague recently made this official, but I think how they did it was a bit confusing.

I installed a ranking table on my site. The rules are pretty simple: You start at spot 1, then go down step by step. The first eight spots are for direct qualification. The next seven are for the qualifying round. The key thing is that when the respective spot is already taken by a team that has an A-licence, not another team from that country gets the spot, but rather the next country in the ranking. So e.g. there will definitely be an A-licence team on first, second, and third spot in Spain, Barca, TAU and Unicaja. So no additional Spanish team. For that to happen, Pamesa or Joventut or anyone else would have to finish 3rd or higher. If you apply this to all the spots, the result is the following:

I. 13 A-licence plus 1 C-licences

II. 8 direct B-licence qualificants through the ranking system:
French Champion
Rytas
Partizan
Cibona
Olimpija
German Champion
Prokom
AJ Milano [they'll be directly qualified even if they lose the final series. If you looked at the ranking on my page, one the two Italian top spot will be cancelled because Siena is an A-licence team. So if Milano loses, that means Siena wins the championship, and the 1st Italian spot will be cancelled because Siena is an A-licence team. Hence all the other spot below the first Italian spot, including the 2nd Italian spot, will move one up.

III. 7 spots for the qualification round
Khimki
ASVEL [in France not the Finalist gets the 2nd B-licence, but the regular season winner, as Ballineurope reported. That is an exception]
Benetton
Maroussi
Charleroi
Ventspils
Azovmash

Plus the wildcard for a French team. Usually ASVEL, but they already qualified through the 2nd B-licence. It doesn't really matter though, as both spots start in the qualification round.

I'm not sure why some calculations include Red Star, maybe they didn't include the wildcard. I would like to hear what these calculation are based on. Fact is, the 2nd Serbian team would be next in the ranking, so they are falling one spot short, according to my calculation.

This post has been edited by robbe: 08 June 2009 - 03:39 PM


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Posted 08 June 2009 - 06:03 PM

Quote

I'm not sure why some calculations include Red Star, maybe they didn't include the wildcard. I would like to hear what these calculation are based on. Fact is, the 2nd Serbian team would be next in the ranking, so they are falling one spot short, according to my calculation.


This. It all depends on Bartolomeu and proabable WC for 3rd Franch team. In my calculations i didn't count it because i didn't find it anywhere officialy.

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 06:57 PM

View Postzwbgr, on Jun 8 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

This. It all depends on Bartolomeu and proabable WC for 3rd Franch team. In my calculations i didn't count it because i didn't find it anywhere officialy.

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

Euroleague confirmed that there is a wildcard instead of the eigth qualification spot. It can be seen in the presentation which they recently posted on their site. Click here, you can choose the language you want to see it in on the right side of the page. I also attached a screenshot.

Attached File  wildcard.jpg (29.35K)
Number of downloads: 6

It hasn't been officially confirmed where this wildcard will go, but since Jordi mentioned it in L'equipe and there haven't been any contrary reports, everybody is assuming it indeed goes to ASVEL. ESAKE head Oikonomidis based a part of his protest on it, saying that three French teams are not a fair representation of that league's true strength.

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:17 PM

You're right. I saw that presentation but i didn't pay enough atention to it.

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:25 AM

Because Bertomeu said that the 2nd place Adriatic League team (which was Red Star this year and Hemofarm in the 3 year rankings) is first in line for the wild card. And the next team in the domestic rankings would be either Red Star from the Serbian League 2nd place finish this year or Hemofarm would be ahead in this based on the 3 year Serbian League rankings.

Finally, if you go past Rytas and Khimki in the Eurocup standings the next teams are Bilbao and Hemofarm. So it is perfectly natural for most people to put either Red Star or Hemofarm in the league for next year. I really can't see why people placing either one of them there is ticking off some people.

This post has been edited by Panathinaikos: 09 June 2009 - 06:28 AM


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:58 AM

View PostPanathinaikos, on Jun 9 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

Because Bertomeu said that the 2nd place Adriatic League team (which was Red Star this year and Hemofarm in the 3 year rankings) is first in line for the wild card. And the next team in the domestic rankings would be either Red Star from the Serbian League 2nd place finish this year or Hemofarm would be ahead in this based on the 3 year Serbian League rankings.

Finally, if you go past Rytas and Khimki in the Eurocup standings the next teams are Bilbao and Hemofarm. So it is perfectly natural for most people to put either Red Star or Hemofarm in the league for next year. I really can't see why people placing either one of them there is ticking off some people.

Again, you are wrong. Red Star was 4th this season in Adriatic League, Cibona was 2nd.

Can you provide us a link for Bertomeu's statement about Adriatic 2nd place is the 1st in line for a wild card?
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:20 PM

What if Alba loses in the 3rd semi? Or if they don't win the championship anyway? Any chance they get the wildcard? Bertomeu won't like parting with a team that had 11k avg attendance
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:23 PM

I'm sure ALBA will get direct WC (from C licence)

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:10 PM

View Postzwbgr, on Jun 9 2009, 01:23 PM, said:

I'm sure ALBA will get direct WC (from C licence)

Yes, they look like the biggest candidates. By the way, I'll be off to see that game in a couple of hours in the arena. Biggest game of the season so far in Germany.

One problem for ALBA is and has always been the TV situation in Germany. Too few people want to see basketball, unfortunately. But overall, Germany is still a comparably attractive market for Euroleague I guess.

@Panathinaikos: The C-licence wildcard can go to any club, a good run in the EuroCup isn't a criteria. I mean, we all know how it works. It will be awarded to the most attractive team market-wise. But if there has been a statement by Bertomeu regarding that matter, I'm interested as well.

Some new developments:
1. ACB goes its own ways
2. Euroleague agrees with Adriatic League Clubs

The key question here is whether or not the system has been established in a legal way last winter when the first meeting took place. ACB and HEBA say no, Euroleague obviously say it was, otherwise they wouldn't write the following in this latest press release:

Quote

With the agreement reached for the awarding of B Licenses to Adriatic League clubs, and thanks to the strong cooperation with Mr. Stankovic, Euroleague concludes this process, which leads to the establishment of the new format for next season with the near-unanimous approval of European basketball.


I was told that a proposal needs to win by at least 80% yes-votes in the assembly in order to be implemented. In the meeting last winter, 23 out of 30 votes [that was written in the press release back then] went in favour of the proposal, which is 76.66 ... percent.

This post has been edited by robbe: 09 June 2009 - 04:12 PM


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:15 PM

It seems we will have many episodes more in this matter
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:52 PM

robbe thanks for the news and the links, but honestly the Euroleague link still doesn't make any sense, as usual...

Will this system come in action in 10/11? How many licenses will Adriatic League get?
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 05:35 PM

View PostBlack Urum, on Jun 9 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

robbe thanks for the news and the links, but honestly the Euroleague link still doesn't make any sense, as usual...

Will this system come in action in 10/11? How many licenses will Adriatic League get?

Adriatic league itself isn't getting a licence, but Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia will be assigned licences according to the domestic ranking they are writing about, which includes Adriatic league results among other results [domestic leagues, European competitions]. Altogether it is five licences, two for Serbia, two for Croatia, and one for Slovenia. The three 1st placed teams in the three national rankings will always qualify, some sensations would have to happen elsewhere for Croatian and Slovenian champions [Serbia's spot is guaranteed as number 8 on the list] not to qualify directly. But for Serbian and Croatian 2nd teams, it is difficult, as we see now. Hemofarm and Zadar are the teams next on the list, they just missed out. But all that is what we expected.

There seems to be some transition period until it takes full effect in 10/11. Would be nice to know what it looks like. :unsure:

This post has been edited by robbe: 09 June 2009 - 05:36 PM


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:38 PM

via www.in-the-game.org

Quote

The ACB club commission CBA issued a statement yesterday in which the commission declared that ACB clubs are not going to comply with the proposed Euroleague format for the 09/10 Euroleague season and after. In their statement, the commission once again claimed what the ACB press release from early May, as well as ESAKE head Vassilis Oikonomidis had already claimed before - that the proposed system had not been legally approved on the meeting last winter.


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:09 PM

View PostBlack Urum, on Jun 9 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

Again, you are wrong. Red Star was 4th this season in Adriatic League, Cibona was 2nd.

Can you provide us a link for Bertomeu's statement about Adriatic 2nd place is the 1st in line for a wild card?


No you are wrong, again. Cibona ALREADY qualified for the Euroleague, so the next teams in line (which would be Hemofarm then Red Star) get the place. How many times do you need to be explained something before you can figure it out on your own?

This post has been edited by Panathinaikos: 09 June 2009 - 10:10 PM


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:19 PM

View PostPanathinaikos, on Jun 9 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

No you are wrong, again. Cibona ALREADY qualified for the Euroleague, so the next teams in line (which would be Hemofarm then Red Star) get the place. How many times do you need to be explained something before you can figure it out on your own?

Adriatic Leagues doesn't get a Euroleague spot. All teams qualify via their domestic Leagues.
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:22 PM

View Postrobbe, on Jun 9 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

Yes, they look like the biggest candidates. By the way, I'll be off to see that game in a couple of hours in the arena. Biggest game of the season so far in Germany.

One problem for ALBA is and has always been the TV situation in Germany. Too few people want to see basketball, unfortunately. But overall, Germany is still a comparably attractive market for Euroleague I guess.

@Panathinaikos: The C-licence wildcard can go to any club, a good run in the EuroCup isn't a criteria. I mean, we all know how it works. It will be awarded to the most attractive team market-wise. But if there has been a statement by Bertomeu regarding that matter, I'm interested as well.

Some new developments:
1. ACB goes its own ways
2. Euroleague agrees with Adriatic League Clubs

The key question here is whether or not the system has been established in a legal way last winter when the first meeting took place. ACB and HEBA say no, Euroleague obviously say it was, otherwise they wouldn't write the following in this latest press release:



I was told that a proposal needs to win by at least 80% yes-votes in the assembly in order to be implemented. In the meeting last winter, 23 out of 30 votes [that was written in the press release back then] went in favor of the proposal, which is 76.66 ... percent.



Also I believe Bertomeu said that if the EuroChallenge champ could be placed in the wild card and since that same team Virtus is one of the biggest Italian clubs and has spent huge money on renovating their arena, and has increased their budget then that is possible. That is an option he said in the new system. If the first 2 Eurocup teams already qualify through their national places then the EuroChallenge champ could get the wild card spot. But that will not happen I can say almost for certain because Italy already got 4 places.

If it is just randomly assigned then the two choices should be I would think ALBA and Aris. Aris would win by having a much larger budget and ALBA would win by having a much better arena and attendance and market size. Based on the new arena rules then it would go to ALBA.

Other candidates could be Joventut but they are not as deserving as Aris and ALBA and Spain already has 4 places. Plus with Rubio leaving I doubt Euroleague would care about them. Another one would be Dynamo. They have financial trouble and have to cut their budget next year by 2/3s. They still have a big club, a big arena available and they would still have about a $15 million budget next year according to their plans, which is still like double ALBA's budget. But they are much too unstable as they prove all the time and Russia already has 2 clubs.

It would have to be without question I think if randomly assigned between ALBA and Aris and because of the arena and attendance then probably ALBA. But we have not had any statement saying it was just totally randomly assigned. As I know Bertomeu said it could be the EuroChallenge champ or the next team in line in Adriatic League.

This post has been edited by Panathinaikos: 09 June 2009 - 10:26 PM


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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:24 PM

View PostBlack Urum, on Jun 9 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

Adriatic Leagues doesn't get a Euroleague spot. All teams qualify via their domestic Leagues.


How many years have you been speaking English?

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:30 PM

Can your provide us a link where Bertomeu says that a wild card could be used for EuroChallenge winner?

In any case Virtus can not get a wild card because all Italy's 4 Euroleague spots are taken by Siena, Roma, AJ Milano and Benetton/Biella.

Same goes for any other Gree, Spanish and Russian club, because simply all the spots are taken.
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 10:32 PM

View PostPanathinaikos, on Jun 10 2009, 12:24 AM, said:

How many years have you been speaking English?

Obviously more than you. And the more flaming I get from you the more your warning level will go up. :rolleyes:
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